Former-Heads of State will protect Jonathan from persecution —Kukah

Firstclass newsline special interview with bishop kukah: How would you
rate former President Goodluck Jonathan's performance in office?
This should be the subject of many books. I think too many of us have
gotten carried away by the political propaganda and wars by both the
All Progressives Congress and the Peoples Democratic Party, in which
both Jonathan and (President Muhammadu) Buhari were subjected to
different characterisations. But we must get past all that. Jonathan's
presidency was not perfect and there will never be one. We all believe
that he could have done a lot of things differently, but I believe he
did his best. It was, in our eyes, far from what we expected. But we
must move away from the narratives of propaganda to the realities now.
History will judge Jonathan and I worry that we are allowing talks
about probes and so on to becloud our judgment of what he did right.
If we cannot identity the good things, how can we identify the bad
things?
Former President Jonathan did not have the rough muscles you need to
govern a country like Nigeria. His work to give us a credible
electoral machine, his ability to tame his ambition; all these are
things we cannot ignore. The mismanagement of our resources is a real
challenge, which we must face and the government must take up very
seriously. People have the mistaken notion that some of us are against
the probe or that we are shielding Jonathan. What have I got to gain
by shielding Jonathan, now that he is not in power? President Buhari's
concern should be with the choir of hypocrites and cheer leaders who
are clamouring around him now. If Jonathan is guilty of theft of state
funds, that should be dealt with but it should not distract us from
whatever else he may have done well. He was a good man and, sadly, if
bad (or good) things happened under his watch, we must let everyone
take his or her own share of the blame or praise.
In specific terms, what do you think Jonathan's administration will be
remembered for?
God alone knows, but he will be remembered as a great Nigerian
statesman who put God and nation first. And that is indelible mark of
honour which money cannot buy. It is a mark of character and honour.
If you think those around President Buhari are hypocrites, are you
saying they are also corrupt and should be probed too?
I did not imply that those around him are hypocrites, but I imply that
there are hypocrites all over and they would have been with Jonathan
if he had remained (in office). They would have been castigating him
as a religious bigot and so on. The hypocrite knows what is right but
just pretends. All the talk about transparency and fighting
corruption, President Buhari knows that he has not raised an army of
the righteous yet and this is why he must be careful. Age, experience,
certificates, old networks, etc. have nothing to do with it. Honour is
a scarce commodity in Nigeria.
My main worry is that this probe thing is a distraction because it has
not been spelt out yet. In any case, the nation cannot stop till
probes have been concluded. In my view, the President showed his hand
too early. Everyone knows what the General (Buhari) stands for and
that is precisely why he was elected. It is much like the Pope saying
now that I have been elected, I will preach the gospel. That is
precisely why he is there. So, my worry is that the probe talk will
soon become the theme song of those like the Roman lynch mobs on the
streets who just want blood. And (it is) the blood of other people,
not those of their fathers, uncles, aunties or townsmen and women. I
think the President could have developed a template for doing this and
simply roll it out when he is ready. Now, my worry is that it will
become a distraction and sooner than later, ethnic, religious and
regional chauvinists will get in the way. After all, he tried and
jailed many people for 50, 80, 90 and 100 years. Some of them have
finished their jail terms and they are with him in the APC or in the
PDP now. So, this is the conundrum we are in.
What then is your candid advice for President Buhari on probing
corrupt activities by the last administration?
He already has the experience but as he has admitted, he is wearing a
new garb of a democrat. He knows that these probes will not be easy,
especially given that from our experience, the more you steal the more
you can find enough national and international lawyers to frustrate
things. Have we not been waiting for almost 20 years now for the late
(Gen. Sani) Abacha's loot? It is a long road to travel and I believe
that the President must never allow the bad to become the enemy of the
good. We all must defeat the ogre of corruption which has consumed our
past, destroyed our present and threatens our future. But this dragon
will not be slain with just one arrow. President Buhari can lay the
foundation, but winning the war requires more than him. Fighting
corruption requires scientific skills; an understanding of the
causative factors, that is all I am saying. We all will be the
beneficiaries but it will take time to wean those who have been
brought up in the milk of corruption such as we all are now. I do not
like the words 'fighting corruption' myself. I think the corruption is
a symptom of our semi-primitive state of existence. Only development
can defeat corruption, not threats, moral exhortations or lachrymal
denunciations.
Should President Buhari just forget about the stolen monies kept in
places and move on?
How can he or anyone forget? But first, where are the places where the
monies are? Identifying the location is the first step. The problem
is, these monies are stolen and they are not necessarily lost. The
challenge is to find those who will help us find them. But finding
them is just the beginning of the problem. The real problem is getting
the loot back because it — the loot — is sustaining banks,
corporations, businesses, industries and careers abroad or in the safe
havens and these people (countries) will fight back with everything.
You think these banks will just wire this loots to you just like that?
They have more lawyers, better lawyers than our entire country. It is
almost 20 years now and we still have not seen the Abacha loot. All we
hear are stories, since (former President Olusegun) Obasanjo's time. I
am just pointing out difficulties and not discouraging anyone; but
there are choices to make. The President has only four years; he has
to decide on how he will conserve his energies and which battles to
fight, when and how. Our people love drama, but theatre has only a
passing use for us now. He does not have a Supreme Military Council of
Generals to throw people into jail. He has a National Assembly to deal
with and there are still lingering problems with that august body. The
President needs help in clearing the debris and banana peels ahead.
Should monies only be recovered and the looters be left unpunished?
I was with the Oputa Panel and I have also studied some part of the
justice system as it concerns issues of human rights, reconciliation
and justice. We can put all the people we want in jails but what will
that do? We can even kill them, but then, what next? The African mind
is not so much tuned to punitive justice but we tend to focus more on
integrative and restorative justice. The theft has denied us
development. So, Buhari can and should learn from ex-President
Obasanjo who got back so much of the loots after he came in without
any noise. I recall him saying that even pastors helped to bring back
loots from repentant parishioners. I believe the President, using the
intelligence resources available, should consider surprise as the most
vital tool in this fight. My worry has not been about not probing as
some of my critics falsely think. I have been saying 'think, plan and
execute.' If you make so much noise, vital evidence, data and files
will be destroyed by collaborators in the civil service or the
relevant offices. The President has not named his team in this battle
yet and he needs to court whistleblowers and wean them from the
looters who may still have control over them. We must all know that
loyalties have not changed yet.
Many Nigerians have expressed their displeasure with your statement on
a live breakfast television programme recently, where you said, if the
incumbent president probes the former president, it could be the
incumbent's turn tomorrow.
I consider myself a public intellectual. My job is to stir the
hornet's nest, generating new ideas and pointing the way forward. I am
quite lucky that I have the chance to air my views. You sound as if I
was against the former President being probed. My point is that no one
knows what will happen tomorrow and a routine procedure like a probe
should not be made to sound like a mission of vengeance. What is more,
can you honestly tell me what will happen tomorrow? Did Obasanjo know
he would end up in prison? Was Gen. Buhari not detained himself? Some
of us are concerned with the future and we do some reflections. I do
not just talk, I try to think and I make mistakes; my views are not
gospel and people are free and welcome to nourish me with new ideas.
But it is sad when people turn ignorance and prejudice into marketable
commodities.
I believe the Office of the President is a 'semi-sacred' office and we
must respect it, even if we mistakenly put a scoundrel there. We can
respect the office and still punish the occupant if he misbehaves. And
Americans did some of this with, say, President (Richard) Nixon and
even the way they handled (Bill) Clinton. There is the tendency to
divide us into those who support presidents and those who do not. I
was labelled a PDP and APC supporter; some of those looking for food
said I was against Jonathan and so on. I actually feel vindicated when
I hear people accuse me of one thing today and another tomorrow.
Nigerians must have heroes and heroines; people whose names will
inspire some awe, not because they are saints but because of what they
have done. Even if Jonathan goes to prison, the world will not forget
that he saved our country from doom. I am saddened that some
food-is-ready, fly-by-night supporters of Buhari, who are not
interested in Nigeria but angling for positions, want to place the
exigencies of the moment ahead of the nation. Their fanaticism
endangers and blurs the path for both the President and country.
Nigeria has received overwhelming international acceptance under
President Buhari. Why do you think this is so?
God knows. But again, this is the reason why I sound so impatient. I
am not stampeding the President as some people think. What I am saying
is that this goodwill is like snow; like ice, it could melt. The
international community has a short attention span and we Nigerians
have far more enemies than we understand. It is a pity if we think
that everyone is happy with how the elections went. If the enemies
sense that Nigerians are unsure, are still quibbling, are still
incoherent, before you know what is happening, the drumbeat will
change. Buhari will be accused of running an Islamic and northern
agenda; he will be accused of persecuting Christians, ignoring this or
that zone, and so on. This is what happens when you allow a vacuum,
which nature abhors. I am genuinely concerned that we do not fritter
this goodwill because all it takes is a small problem; earthquake or a
major disaster somewhere, and attention will turn away from us.
Do you then think Nigeria's recent closeness to the United States
should be reconsidered, as some analysts have said?
I do not think that the closeness to the United States, if you call it
so, is newly found. Remember that we were the first to receive the
American Peace Corps in the 1960s. We should worry that Nigeria did
not build on the tremendous goodwill of that great country. Go back to
the visit of Sir Tafawa Balewa; Google it and see the reception. TIME
Magazine made him 'Man of the Year,' the first African to achieve that
feat. America had very high hopes for Nigeria but we blew it. Nigerian
presidents have been welcomed in the White House far more than any
other country in Africa or the developing world. Remember they had
offices in Lagos, Kano, Kaduna, and so on. We could obtain our visas
in Kaduna. What happened? Only a foolish country will refuse the hand
of friendship of the most powerful and most friendly nation in the
world.
How would you rate Buhari's first three months in office?
I do not know what to say because there isn't much on the table. It is
gratifying that the President has moved decisively to take on the
challenges of Boko Haram, for example. But I wished that by now, we
(would have) had some skeletal portfolios such as the Chief of Staff,
Secretary to Government of the Federation and so on. But, he knows
best and we await the childbirth.
Don't you think he needs to take his time to appoint the right people
to work with in order to have round pegs in round holes?
The President can take all the time in the world; it will never be a
guarantee of the quality of his choice. Jesus prayed before choosing
his disciples; he knew every man's character, but Judas was in the
crowd. I hear Nigerians harping on choosing the right people. How do
you measure the right people? Is my ability to write a good article,
the fact that I went to Oxford, Cambridge, and Yale, all evidence that
I am a good material? I think all the President should do is appoint
people, read the riot act, lay down the minimum of what is tolerable
and sack people when they fall short. But there will always be
traitors. After all, from what one hears, the transactional costs of
access are already beginning to manifest. The opportunity that access
offers will be abused by aides and so on. President Buhari, for all
these years, has not mixed with people. So, he has to rely on pieces
of paper and whispers, most of which will be based on personal
interests.
The President will not change the entire bureaucracy, the security and
other agencies. It is action that will recruit us into this battle,
not some mere look in the face or pieces of paper or pedigree. Today's
saint can become the worst crook. It is what happens when we sit on
that seat and the pressures to do good, to help in the name of
in-laws, schoolmates, traditional or religious rulers, and so on take
their toll; when they offer you their daughters because you are now a
minister, these are the pressures. The President should be concerned
with raising a hard-core, concrete architecture that will guide public
office holders and set the bar high, rather than all the talk about
quality of persons. Labels do not tell us how a drink tastes. I heard
him say that when he was Minister for Petroleum, the Federal Executive
Council had to approve his estacode. All those policies are what
matter most. People will fall in line when they see laws and
punishment.
You have expressed your concerns about Buhari's anti-corruption
campaign. In specific terms, what are your grievances?
President Buhari has not told anyone how his anti-corruption war will
be fought. The Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related
Offences Commission and the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission
are Obasanjo's vehicles. The last vehicle Gen. Buhari used was the
Military Tribunals, whose consequences we know. For now, the President
has said he will fight corruption but the strategies are not clear
yet. So, I do not know how and why people have already started
speaking of (an) anti-corruption campaign.
Personally, I have not expressed concerns beyond the fact that due
process is important and must define how we go. I am still convinced
that we do not need to hear so much lamentation because the case has
already been made. It is quite sad that the media has deliberately
continued to distort this issue of probe. I do not know where the
media got and started spreading this baseless rumour about our
committee, for example, pleading on behalf of former President
Jonathan not to be probed. Since he left government, I have neither
spoken with nor seen ex-President Jonathan until we met him on Tuesday
(penultimate week). In our discussion with him, he stated clearly that
he was not against any probe but he was pained by what seemed to be
like acts of victimisation and persecution. Jonathan is a former
President and if he needs shelter, his brother former presidents are
there and alive. And they are in a better position to protect the
office of a former president with the architecture of respect and
integrity. We must be careful not to play into the hands of those
dictators who, for fear of persecution and humiliation, have decided
to cling on to power at all cost and at the risk of destroying their
people.
Who are these dictators you are referring to?
African dictators, of course! They are all over the place, bringing
shame to Africa and diminishing their people, breeding hatred and war
by their greed. If you do not treat an ex-president well, those ones
who want to go to their grave from the throne will say, 'You see, we
told you, if you leave here, you will go to jail.' I am against any
perceived injustice to anyone at any level and we will speak out when
it occurs.
Do you think the league of ex-presidents is there to shield any one of
them found by the government to have committed a crime against the
state?
No, you can see from what President Bush Jr. did when the disaster of
Katrina took place. He pulled out his father and President Clinton to
go out and work for America. I have said it over and over; we are
blessed to have six living and strong former Heads of State in
Nigeria. No country has anything like this. We must learn to treasure
what we have, but the sad thing is that for us in Nigeria, no one
deserves respect except those who have money and influence or are in
office.
What then is your take on the belief by some Nigerians that most of
these former military Heads of State were coup plotters and ineligible
to be regarded as true leaders?
Did President Buhari not come to power through a coup? In 2007, when I
wrote an article to clarify what Gen. Buhari was alleged to have said
about Muslims voting for Muslims, I had reactions. Some Muslims abused
me and accused me of having deceived and misled Gen. Buhari; some
Christians accused me of breaking ranks and making a case for a man
who ought to have been tried and jailed. Those who have changed their
jerseys and are not Buhari apparatchiks, were they not the same people
who abused Gen. Buhari and harassed us at the Oputa Panel for not
ordering them to be imprisoned? I laugh when I think of these things.
But, as I said, I try to think carefully before I talk. It often takes
many years but my critics often find a way of coming around to my
arguments. I do not speak out of malice and, sometimes, we may not
make our point clearly or even correctly. I am happy that even people
like (Prof.) Wole Soyinka have come round now to join the Jonathan
train. It is progress.
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